Comments on: A World of Propositions http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=a-world-of-propositions About Life, Christianity, Philosophy, etc. Fri, 27 Aug 2010 05:45:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Hilda http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-48 Hilda Mon, 09 Feb 2009 03:14:28 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-48 That is exactly right. And if you cannot give good solid answers to what the schools are teaching the kids than you have lost them to teachings that promise lots but in reality deliever nothing. Except eternal death and separation from God. So be there for this kid that God has brought into your life as well as those two little ones of your own. Get information from this site on why we believe what we believe, that God indeed did create this world and that He did it in 6 literal days, that He created man with a purpose and not that we evolved out of animals and can therefore dictate our own existance and life, that death and suffering were not in God's orignal plan for mankind and so much more. Learn this stuff and pass it on. People that were raised in Calvary Chapel mentality have a much different background than most other people. In other churches people are not encouraged to get into the Bible and think and ask the Holy Spirit to teach them. They only get what they get on Sunday and the little stories that they recieved in Sunday school. After a while those are more like fairy tales than the truth of God's plan and will and life for each of us who are willing to believe and obey and follow after Him. Good luck. That is exactly right. And if you cannot give good solid answers to what the schools are teaching the kids than you have lost them to teachings that promise lots but in reality deliever nothing. Except eternal death and separation from God.

So be there for this kid that God has brought into your life as well as those two little ones of your own. Get information from this site on why we believe what we believe, that God indeed did create this world and that He did it in 6 literal days, that He created man with a purpose and not that we evolved out of animals and can therefore dictate our own existance and life, that death and suffering were not in God’s orignal plan for mankind and so much more. Learn this stuff and pass it on.

People that were raised in Calvary Chapel mentality have a much different background than most other people. In other churches people are not encouraged to get into the Bible and think and ask the Holy Spirit to teach them. They only get what they get on Sunday and the little stories that they recieved in Sunday school. After a while those are more like fairy tales than the truth of God’s plan and will and life for each of us who are willing to believe and obey and follow after Him. Good luck.

]]> By: Matthew Taft http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-47 Matthew Taft Sun, 08 Feb 2009 15:26:02 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-47 Thanks, Hilda. I'll check out that site. It's interesting, how you said that our God today is treated by us often as just another of many gods, God only when it is convenient. This is especially true in the south, where everyone grows up in the same church that their parents and grandparents grew up in. They believe the truth, show up on Sunday and for all of the events, but it can almost sometimes just be a "cultural" thing. I especially like how you said, "The kids today are not getting the answers that they need." This is something I went through in high school. I started realizing how little I knew, started asking questions, and often felt like others perceived me as rebellious and factitious because of my questioning. (So I found a friend in your son, and we conspired together on a weekly basis :). Anyway, I met with a kid in high school a couple of weeks ago who had a lot of questions about faith. He realized, like I had, that he suddenly didn't have a good defense for a lot of the things he believed, and he didn't feel like he could even share these things with his parents without being judged. It was great, because I felt that he found in me what I had not found in high school; someone who would listen and not judge his concerns and questions, and who could provide some direction on how to find those answers. Here I am writing a lot again, but that's what you get for writing about something important! Needless to say, I really see a need, especially in the young crowd, to start thinking about the things they have been brought up to believe. At the heart of this young man's questions was probably something like, "If I was born Muslim, would I be a Muslim today? If I was born Buddhist, would I be Buddhist today? Am I only Christian today because I was born into a Christian family, or it is really the true way?" Thanks, Hilda. I’ll check out that site. It’s interesting, how you said that our God today is treated by us often as just another of many gods, God only when it is convenient. This is especially true in the south, where everyone grows up in the same church that their parents and grandparents grew up in. They believe the truth, show up on Sunday and for all of the events, but it can almost sometimes just be a “cultural” thing. I especially like how you said, “The kids today are not getting the answers that they need.” This is something I went through in high school. I started realizing how little I knew, started asking questions, and often felt like others perceived me as rebellious and factitious because of my questioning. (So I found a friend in your son, and we conspired together on a weekly basis :) . Anyway, I met with a kid in high school a couple of weeks ago who had a lot of questions about faith. He realized, like I had, that he suddenly didn’t have a good defense for a lot of the things he believed, and he didn’t feel like he could even share these things with his parents without being judged. It was great, because I felt that he found in me what I had not found in high school; someone who would listen and not judge his concerns and questions, and who could provide some direction on how to find those answers.

Here I am writing a lot again, but that’s what you get for writing about something important! Needless to say, I really see a need, especially in the young crowd, to start thinking about the things they have been brought up to believe. At the heart of this young man’s questions was probably something like, “If I was born Muslim, would I be a Muslim today? If I was born Buddhist, would I be Buddhist today? Am I only Christian today because I was born into a Christian family, or it is really the true way?”

]]> By: Hilda http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-46 Hilda Sun, 08 Feb 2009 06:58:39 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-46 Matt, you said "I do know this: as a Christian, the Bible doesn't leave it up to us to decide whether or not it is important to know why we believe what we believe. We are not given the option to simply "take it all in faith."" This weekend I joined CC Costa Mesa, via internet on a weekend of 'Answers to Darwin' conference and something Ken Ham said was, we no longer have a foundation that belives in the God of Genesis; the Creator, like the Jews did. We have a Greek God, just one of many. And the preaching of the cross and resurrection has become foolishness to us as opposed to being a stumbling block. The kids today are not getting the answers that they need, about why they should believe the Bible and how It confirms science, so they are quick to turn their backs on God. They don't see Him as relevant to their lives or what is going on around them. I wish I could keep going but it would get real long. Check out answersingenesis.org for lots of videos and materials that your boys can watch to get a good foundation on why we believe the Bible. As far as Jesus' miracles, I learned from Henry Morris that there are 7 miracles in the book of John that Jesus did that were outside of just healing types. Like changing substance, water into wine, and giving life to Lazarus, feeding the 5000 with just a lunch, etc, I can't remember them all. But just to say that Jesus was a BIG cut above the prophets. Stay focused on Jesus, in Him we have all we need. Love you. My love to your bride. Matt, you said “I do know this: as a Christian, the Bible doesn’t leave it up to us to decide whether or not it is important to know why we believe what we believe. We are not given the option to simply “take it all in faith.”"

This weekend I joined CC Costa Mesa, via internet on a weekend of ‘Answers to Darwin’ conference and something Ken Ham said was, we no longer have a foundation that belives in the God of Genesis; the Creator, like the Jews did. We have a Greek God, just one of many. And the preaching of the cross and resurrection has become foolishness to us as opposed to being a stumbling block.

The kids today are not getting the answers that they need, about why they should believe the Bible and how It confirms science, so they are quick to turn their backs on God. They don’t see Him as relevant to their lives or what is going on around them. I wish I could keep going but it would get real long. Check out answersingenesis.org for lots of videos and materials that your boys can watch to get a good foundation on why we believe the Bible.

As far as Jesus’ miracles, I learned from Henry Morris that there are 7 miracles in the book of John that Jesus did that were outside of just healing types. Like changing substance, water into wine, and giving life to Lazarus, feeding the 5000 with just a lunch, etc, I can’t remember them all. But just to say that Jesus was a BIG cut above the prophets.

Stay focused on Jesus, in Him we have all we need. Love you. My love to your bride.

]]> By: Matthew Taft http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-45 Matthew Taft Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:32:13 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-45 Oh, is that what you meant? I think I was confused by your sentence ending with "evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim". I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like we're together on this one. :) Oh, is that what you meant? I think I was confused by your sentence ending with “evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim”. I’m not quite sure what you mean by that, but it sounds like we’re together on this one. :)

]]> By: Miles http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-44 Miles Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:29:46 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-44 and you know... now thinking of it, it makes sense that Paul would use rhetoric. Paul was writing letters. It's kind of difficult to attach a miracle to a letter. and you know… now thinking of it, it makes sense that Paul would use rhetoric. Paul was writing letters. It’s kind of difficult to attach a miracle to a letter.

]]> By: Miles http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-42 Miles Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:27:13 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-42 So, we would basically agree then...? As I said in my first comment, "the miracle that Jesus had just performed (healing the lame man) was sufficient evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim" His message revealed His divinity, which upset the religious officials, but His works backed His words. Getting into a verbal argument over His divinity would have gotten nowhere with the establishment, yet miracles were pretty good evidence to support His claim. "I'd say Jesus' miracles, by themselves... are not enough to prove His divinity" Wouldn't you be disagreeing with Jesus then? "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." - John 5:36 (emphasis mine) Also... "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." - John 10:25 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." - John 10:38 You are correct, there were miraculous sings that followed the ministry of many of the prophets, however their message was different than Jesus'. Miracles are often given to substantiate the message, thus Jesus also promised His disciples that miracles would follow their proclamation of the gospel (Mark 16). Jesus was the only one claiming to be God, the prophets and disciples did not. So, we would basically agree then…?

As I said in my first comment, “the miracle that Jesus had just performed (healing the lame man) was sufficient evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim”

His message revealed His divinity, which upset the religious officials, but His works backed His words. Getting into a verbal argument over His divinity would have gotten nowhere with the establishment, yet miracles were pretty good evidence to support His claim.

“I’d say Jesus’ miracles, by themselves… are not enough to prove His divinity”

Wouldn’t you be disagreeing with Jesus then?

“But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” – John 5:36 (emphasis mine)

Also…

“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.” – John 10:25

“But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” – John 10:38

You are correct, there were miraculous sings that followed the ministry of many of the prophets, however their message was different than Jesus’. Miracles are often given to substantiate the message, thus Jesus also promised His disciples that miracles would follow their proclamation of the gospel (Mark 16). Jesus was the only one claiming to be God, the prophets and disciples did not.

]]> By: Matthew Taft http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-41 Matthew Taft Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:15:19 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-41 I agree with you! And I wouldn't say I disagree with Jesus' statements, either. How could I? It's a matter of particulars. His miracles did not, in fact, prove his divinity. Just like you said towards the end of your reply, and just as the passages you quoted indicate, His miracles substantiated His message. If Jesus didn't claim to be God, His miracles wouldn't do the claiming for Him, so to speak. It was the fact that He did claim divinity, and then had miracles to back it up, that is so powerful. I agree with you! And I wouldn’t say I disagree with Jesus’ statements, either. How could I?

It’s a matter of particulars. His miracles did not, in fact, prove his divinity. Just like you said towards the end of your reply, and just as the passages you quoted indicate, His miracles substantiated His message. If Jesus didn’t claim to be God, His miracles wouldn’t do the claiming for Him, so to speak. It was the fact that He did claim divinity, and then had miracles to back it up, that is so powerful.

]]> By: Miles http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-40 Miles Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:02:48 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-40 "I'd say Jesus' miracles, by themselves... are not enough to prove His divinity" Wouldn't you be disagreeing with Jesus then? "But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me." - John 5:36 (emphasis mine) Also... "Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me." - John 10:25 "But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." - John 10:38 You are correct, there were miraculous sings that followed the ministry of many of the prophets, however their message was different than Jesus'. Miracles are often given to substantiate the message, thus Jesus also promised His disciples that miracles would follow their proclamation of the gospel (Mark 16). Jesus was the only one claiming to be God, the prophets and disciples did not. “I’d say Jesus’ miracles, by themselves… are not enough to prove His divinity”

Wouldn’t you be disagreeing with Jesus then?

“But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” – John 5:36 (emphasis mine)

Also…

“Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.” – John 10:25

“But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” – John 10:38

You are correct, there were miraculous sings that followed the ministry of many of the prophets, however their message was different than Jesus’. Miracles are often given to substantiate the message, thus Jesus also promised His disciples that miracles would follow their proclamation of the gospel (Mark 16). Jesus was the only one claiming to be God, the prophets and disciples did not.

]]> By: Matthew Taft http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-39 Matthew Taft Tue, 03 Feb 2009 01:50:12 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-39 Hey Miles, I've already deleted two replies. You know what I like about you? You can say everything you want to say in a few words and it all makes sense. I can't pull it off. So here are my quick answers, without any defense: 1. I'd say Jesus' miracles, by themselves, without considering anything else, are not enough to prove His divinity, just as the prophets who, before Him, performed miracles and were not divine. 2. I would agree that Jesus makes astounding claims in this passage, but it is interesting to note that he does not do it in a propositional way, as Paul would, like "If this, then that, so this, but not that. Therefore, this." The Jews seemed to think prepositionally about what He said, and He just seems to continue talking, making bold claims, some of which are confusing, without feeling the need to stop and explain the logical reasoning behind each one. I just find this interesting. Hey Miles,

I’ve already deleted two replies. You know what I like about you? You can say everything you want to say in a few words and it all makes sense. I can’t pull it off. So here are my quick answers, without any defense:

1. I’d say Jesus’ miracles, by themselves, without considering anything else, are not enough to prove His divinity, just as the prophets who, before Him, performed miracles and were not divine.

2. I would agree that Jesus makes astounding claims in this passage, but it is interesting to note that he does not do it in a propositional way, as Paul would, like “If this, then that, so this, but not that. Therefore, this.” The Jews seemed to think prepositionally about what He said, and He just seems to continue talking, making bold claims, some of which are confusing, without feeling the need to stop and explain the logical reasoning behind each one. I just find this interesting.

]]> By: Miles http://www.matthewetaft.com/wordpress/2009/02/a-world-of-propositions/comment-page-1/#comment-38 Miles Mon, 02 Feb 2009 19:52:00 +0000 http://matthewetaft.com/wordpress/?p=104#comment-38 I just got back from a teachers meeting at the Bible College... 1 Peter 3:15 is their theme verse for the semester. Good job on picking up the propositional nature of the Jewish reaction in John 5. Wouldn't you say though that the miracle that Jesus had just performed (healing the lame man) was sufficient evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim? And isn't that basically what Jesus points to in the remainder of His discourse? Just a thought... I just got back from a teachers meeting at the Bible College… 1 Peter 3:15 is their theme verse for the semester.

Good job on picking up the propositional nature of the Jewish reaction in John 5. Wouldn’t you say though that the miracle that Jesus had just performed (healing the lame man) was sufficient evidence to prove Jesus veiled divinity claim? And isn’t that basically what Jesus points to in the remainder of His discourse?

Just a thought…

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